Family History - tales around the tree
© 2024 smhopkins.
While every reasonable effort is made to ensure that the information provided on this site is accurate, no guarantees for the
currency or accuracy of information are made. If you do make use of any of the information here or have anything to add or correct, please let me
know. sue [at] hopkinsweb.org.uk
Names
Blundell - Wigan & Wirral
Boniface - Sussex
Bradley - Suffolk & Essex
Bustin - Oxford
Campleman - Hull & SE
England
Catt/Cattley - Kent & London
Copping - Kent, Margate
Courtney - Wirral &
Liverpool
Cox - Dorset & Sussex
Coyne - Ireland & Chester
Curtin - Ireland, Midlands &
USA
De Normanville - France,
London & South Australia
Divall - Sussex & Lewisham
Foot - Dorset
Greenway - Sussex & London
Griesel - Germany, London &
Essex
Grubb - Lewisham
Holbrook - London & Essex
Hopkins - North Shields,
Wirral & Liverpool
Hurst - Hounslow & Rhyl
Jagger - Essex
Laird - Surrey & London
Lovel - North Shields
Milleman - Holland, Kent,
London & USA
Molnar - Hungary & London
Morgan - Devon
Murray - Kincardineshire,
London & South Australia
Paver - Hull & London
Pearl - Suffolk & Essex
Rankin - Glasgow, Midlands
& Canada
Robson - Lewisham &
London
Skinner - Essex
Smart - Essex, London,
Canada & Seattle
Starr - Norfolk &
Westminster
Still - Kent/Sussex, Essex
Tales around the tree
unrelated stories I’ve come
across in the course of
research and too good to
ignore
The Gallery revived
School photos, Midhurst and
Birkenhead & more
Saturday 15th June 2024 - How do you solve a problem like Mihàly?
Mihàly Molnàr married Elizabeth Alice Cattley in Christ Church, Camberwell on
the 21st of May 1888. He says he's a bachelor, aged 34, and working as a
Furrier. His father, also Mihàly, is also a Furrier, and as he is not described as
Deceased, unlike Elizabeth's father Isaac Cattley, he was presumably to the best
of his son's knowledge, still alive. The witnesses to the marriage are Louisa
Cattley, Elizabeth's mother and Henry Rossner. In 1891, Mihàly (now Michael),
and Elizabeth are living at 268 Commercial Road in Peckham with their two
daughters. He's 37, working as a Fur Cutter and gives his country of birth as
Hungary. Their daughter Nellie Yren had been born on the 20th March 1889 at
70 Falmouth Road, Newington; Emma Louisa had been born on the 28th July
1890. A daughter Dolly Elizabeth was born in 1893 but she sadly died shortly
after her fourth birthday.
In 1901 Mihàly is lodging at 722B Old Kent Road and gives his age as 47, he's
widowed and working in the Fur Trade (Furrier). Elizabeth had died the previous
year two months after the birth of their son Louis Alexander, and in 1901 the
children are living with their grandmother Louisa Cattley at 248 Commercial
Road, Peckham, and Louisa's daughter Emma is working as a Furrier. 1911 finds
Mihàly boarding at 21 Asylum Road, Peckham; his age seems to have been
changed from 59 to 57, and he's still working as a Fur cutter. He does
(incorrectly, but usefully) say he's married and has been for 25 years, with four
children, three of whom are living, and they are still at 248 Commercial Road in
Peckham with their grandmother Louisa Cattley; Louisa's daughter Emma and
her granddaughter Nellie Molnàr are both working as Fur machinists at a "Fur
Factory". Mihàly died on the 21st October 1913 in the Camberwell Infirmary
from Pulmonary tuberculosis and exhaustion; his daughter Nellie Molnàr, now
of 4 Engleheart Road, Catford, registered his death and she gives his age as 61,
his address as 10 Lugard Road, and his occupation as Furrier journeyman.
I can't find Mihàly on the 1881 census, so assume he arrived from Hungary after
that date. Louisa Cattley and her daughter Elizabeth Alice are both working as
furriers at the time of that census, so that must be how Mihàly met his future
wife. It seems more than likely that Henry Rossner, who was a witness to the
wedding, was the link; he was a wholesale furrier born in Hungary in 1844 and
probably employed the Cattleys as well as Mihàly. Does the fact that Henry
Rossner was a witness suggest a closer relationship with Mihàly than
employer/employee?
If only Mihàly had become naturalised I'd know as much about him as I do
Henry who was registered on the 1st April 1876: his address was 52 Gower
Street, he was aged 32, married with no children, and a subject of the Austro-
Hungarian Empire, born in Mátészalka, Szabolcs-Szatmár-Bereg county,
Hungary. He married twice: Maud Ellen (Nellie) Levy in 1873 and Marion Nathan
in 1880; his daughter Ellen (Nellie) Amelia Frances was born in 1879. His
Hungarian parents, Joseph and Getel Rossner, were living with him in
Hampstead in 1891, and he had a brother Leopold who was naturalised on the
28th June 1899 at the age of 51; living in Stoke Newington he worked as a
Furrier and mantle maker.
Henry Rossner's business partner, Joseph Klein, obtained his naturalisation
certificate on the same day as Henry. Joseph was also Hungarian and was born
in Nagy-Karoli, Szatsmar in about 1837. In 1871 he has a Draper's business in
Marylebone High Street and by 1873 Klein & Rossner are trading as Furriers
from 2 Cheapside, E.C. and advertising for a "Muff stuffer" - "one who
understands her business thoroughly". Things changed early in 1881 when the
partnership broke up:
Notice is hereby given that the Partnership lately subsisting between us the
undersigned Joseph Klein and Henry Rossner carrying on business as Furriers at 126
Queen Victoria Street in the City of London under the style or firm of Klein and
Rossner has this day been dissolved by mutual consent. Dated this 10th day of
January 1881. [London Gazette]
The 1881 census, though, finds both men still working in the fur trade, both as
Wholesale Furriers. In 1891 Joseph is working as a Furrier, as are two of his
sons; Henry, still a Wholesale Furrier at the time of this census, would spend the
1890s fighting - and failing - bankruptcy.
March 19, 1895 Discharge suspended for six years from the date of the conclusion of
the Public Examination, viz., 26th June 1894. Bankrupt to be discharged as from
26th June 1900
Grounds named in Order for refusing an Absolute Order of Discharge. Bankrupt’s
assets are not of a value equal to 10s. in the pound on the amount of his unsecured
liabilities; that he had omitted to keep such books of account as are usual and
proper in the business carried on by him, and as sufficiently disclose his business
transactions and financial position within the three years immediately preceding his
bankruptcy; had continued to trade after knowing himself to be insolvent; had
contributed to his bankruptcy by unjustifiable extravagence in living; had within
three months preceding the date of the Receiving Order, when unable to pay his
debts as they became due, given an undue preference to one of his creditors; and
had on a previous occasion made a Composition with his creditors. [London Gazette
23 April 1895]
In 1901 he seems to be back in business as a Furrier (Manufacturer); in 1911 he
has moved with his wife to Westcliff-on-Sea in Essex, but says he is an
Employer, a Fur manufacturer in the City of London. Widowed by 1921, aged 80
he is living with his married daughter Nellie Collins and her family in Islington,
and describes himself as a Manufacturing Furrier working on his own account
at 79 Knightrider Street, E.C.4. Henry, 75 (!), survived a serious road accident in
Islington in 1927 when he was hit by a motorcyclist and thrown into the road.
The motorcyclist died, though his pillion passenger survived, and Henry was
taken to Hackney Hospital. Henry died on the 28th October 1937 and was
buried in the West Ham Jewish Cemetery.
Joseph Klein died on the 9th of April 1897 and administration was granted to his
widow Jane, with effects of £184 12s 3d. Noticeably in 1901 Joseph's sons have
abandoned the fur trade and are working as Clerks.
Was it the fees that prevented Mihàly from naturalising? After the 1870
Naturalization Act it seems that the basic cost of a naturalisation certificate was
£5 to which had to be added the declaration and oath fees (7 x 2/6d) plus any
agent costs. Another aspect of this Act was that a British woman who married a
foreign man would lose her British nationality, so as Mihàly never naturalised,
Elizabeth Alice, and their children, became in effect Hungarian: a fact that I think
affected the family right up to and beyond the First World War.
Mihàly’s granddaughter Nellie wrote: “The War had been on for two years when I
was born in 1916. My father was in the Army, and my mother who was Hungarian
was afraid to go out because of bad feelings. I believe she relied solely on a kind
neighbour to get everything for her. She told us afterwards that we lived mostly on
turnips and bananas.”
So what was Mihàly’s relationship with Henry Rossner? Was it possible that
three Hungarian furriers met completely by chance in London in the 1870s/80s?
Mihàly called his daughter Nellie, obviously out of respect for Henry's wife and
daughter, and Nellie Yren Molnàr also had a daughter called Nellie which all
suggests a personal connection. I would like to think that Henry Rossner had
come to England as an established Furrier. From his business carried on in
Hungary he saw the opportunities offered by the fur market in London, and
went into business with Joseph Klein - who came from the same part of
Hungary - taking advantage of his retail experience as a Draper. So could
Mihàly’s father Mihàly have worked for Henry Rossner as a Furrier in Hungary?
And did Henry Rossner offer his son a position in his new London company?
Fur work was passed down through families and it continued in Mihàly's
descendants into the 1930s. In the 1921 census his daughter Nellie, now
married and with four children, gives her occupation as Furrier, working at
home, and her daughter Nellie wrote of her mother Nellie Yren Molnàr:
"Mum had been a Court Furrier before she married, and we were very proud of the
fact that she helped to put the ermine on the Coronation robes that were on display
in the London Museum. She still did a lot of fur work privately. [...] Mum always
made all our clothes [...] everything was trimmed with fur. I remember we had fur
muffs – a very good idea for the winter. [...] For a while after Mum died (29th April
1931), people who did not know would bring fur work for her. I took on some of the
little jobs such as lining fox furs; I had helped Mum when she was alive so I knew
how to do it." She also recalled using silver sand to clean furs.
Does DNA help at all in finding Mihàly’s origins? I only have one Ancestry match
that includes the name Molnar and there is sadly some doubtful research
connected with this tree, and it has no shared matches. MyHeritage isn’t much
help either: only one match with the surname Molnar with no tree, but a list of
shared matches that do go back to Hungary.
If you search on FamilySearch for Mihàly Molnars born in Hungary in 1854 with a
father Mihàly there are dozens of hits - it is after all a common name translating
as Michael Miller. Of all the ones I have followed up none have the occupation
of Furrier, and most are tenant or peasant farmers. My Mihàly has been hi-
jacked by several Ancestry trees claiming that he had already been married in
Hungary in 1873, had two children born there before coming to London,
marrying Elizabeth Alice Cattley and eventually dying in Camberwell in 1913. His
son Mihàly from his first marriage went to America from Antwerp in 1910, and
tracing him back through his family in Deregnyő, Zemplén, Hungary or Slovakia
they are all variants of földművelő or farmers; and no DNA matches - yet.
Thursday 9th May 2024 - Sometimes DNA does provide a solution
One of my brickwalls was the identity of my 3x great grandfather John Robson.
As he doesn’t appear to have married Susannah Divall, the mother of Louisa
Frances Robson who was born in Lewisham in 1843 …
Between June 1841 and March 1843 Susannah Divall had a relationship that
culminated in the birth of Louisa Frances Robson at the end of December 1843
in Lewisham Village. Louisa was baptised on the 31st January 1844 and her
birth was registered on the 8th February 1844. On Louisa’s baptism her parents
are named as John and Susannah Rosina Robson, and Susannah, who
registered the birth, names herself as Susannah Rosina Robson formerly Divall.
On both occasions it says that Louisa’s father is John Robson, a coachman.
Which is all perfectly as it should be, except that there does not appear to be
any marriage for Susannah and John.
I looked at several possible candidates for this John Robson, assuming his name
hadn’t been just plucked out of the ether by Susannah as she consistently used
the surname Robson and declared herself a widow on her marriage in 1861 to
Charles Cater. Now Ancestry DNA matches connect me to the descendants of
the brother of one of the likely candidates, and additionally to members of his
mother’s family.
This is the John Robson who was the son of John Robson and Martha Booker;
their eighth child and fifth son who was born in Greenwich on the 23rd of
January 1820. This takes the family up north to the Robsons in Easington and
Sunderland, originally from Newbrough in Northumberland, and the Bookers, a
mining family from Brampton in Derbyshire.
Wednesday 13th March 2024 - Pikes & Rogers of Iping and Stedham
I’ve been working over the last few months on my personal history. This is a
piece of research that arose out of that; though it’s nothing to do with my family
I think it may be of interest to Midhurst local historians, and any feedback on
this would be much appreciated (email link at bottom of this page).
Wednesday 5th April 2023 - Mistaken identities Read more …
Sunday 12th March 2023- Daniel Napoleon Bennett Read more …
Sunday 5th March 2023 - Casellis: Blockmakers and Banjos Read more …
Monday 16th May 2022 - Coppings in Margate Read more …
Thursday 24th March 2022 - The Rickling Skinners Read more …
Tuesday 8th March 2022 - Jagger to Smart Read more …
Thursday 18th November 2021 - Sidney Tuffrey 1865-1961 Read more …
Thursday 2nd September 2021 - Wolvercote - Balls, Busbys and Bustins Read more …
Friday 27th November 2020 - Curtins & Rankins Read more …
Tuesday 5th October 2020 - Charlotte Cox Read more …
Tuesday 29th September 2020 - Jessie Mary Woodward Read more …
Tuesday 4th August 2020 - The Queen’s Arms near Dartington, and the Alsop family of
Newton Abbot Read more …
With family members from most of the counties of England (also Scotland, Ireland and continental Europe, and
probably Wales and the Isle of Man) this is a collection of stories about people whom I have found interesting. This
page reflects my current research and the sidebar lists the main names already researched to a greater or lesser
extent.
Mihàly’s daughter Nellie Yren
Molnar … possibly an engagement
photo that has become reversed
… and his granddaughter Nellie:
“everything was trimmed with fur”